In this interview, Mari Elka Pangestu talks about being a role model, navigating a successful career when you’re in the minority, and the importance of instilling confidence in young people.
Chapter: Attracting female talent
About: Mari Elka Pangestu is an Indonesian economist and academic who served as managing director of development policy and partnerships at the World Bank from 2020 until her retirement in March 2023. She is a former government minister for Indonesia and is highly regarded as an international expert on a range of global issues.
Have there been any major pivotal moments in your career?
Yes, there have been many. But at the root of it all, I think I was very lucky in the way that I was educated and brought up by my parents. I was the only girl in our family, but my parents never discriminated between me and my brothers. They really drummed the value of education into us. We were taught to appreciate that we were able to go to school and to university because they did not have
those opportunities.
My father in particular was always very encouraging of me, maybe because of his own background, which was very poor. His own mother sent him away so that he could go to school rather than work in his father’s shop. And by doing that, he found his way to success. Although he’s very traditional in many ways, he also taught me the importance of being independent and finding a way to live—with or without a husband— because you never know what might happen.
“My father gave me the confidence that I could do whatever I wanted in life, and I was fortunate to have that value from a young age.”
How do you navigate being in a minority position?
When you are in a minority, you are constantly adjusting to fit in. I’m Indonesian of Chinese descent, which is a very small minority of the population in Indonesia. When I was young, my parents also worked abroad, and I ended up going to nine different schools between grade school and high school.
“I was always finding myself in new situations where I had to adjust. And to do that, you need to observe and listen a lot.”
Having this experience gave me a different perspective from my peers back at home. I have a vivid memory of attending my first seminar meeting at ISEI—the Indonesian Economist Association—when I returned after my studies, where the speakers and audience were mostly men. From studying abroad, asking questions was completely normal to me. So during the Q&A session, I raised my hand, stood up, and asked my question. And the whole room turned. It was like, “Who is this woman, asking a question?” because that was not the norm.
It took time, but I did get into the life of being an academic in Indonesia and then again as a government minister. One light-bulb moment was when a friend explained that some people might not know how to deal with me, as they had never interacted with this very westernized type of woman who did not wear traditional dress before.
“I think the most important thing is to assimilate and adjust to the environment and people around you.”
I work very hard in whatever situation I am in to observe differences—in culture, in background, and so on—and find ways to make sure that people feel comfortable with me, whether it’s getting involved in important traditions like Buka Puasa and Sahur or wearing familiar clothing styles and brands like Busana Nusantara.
What is it like being a role model for others?
Being the first to do something can be tough. When I came back to Indonesia after my studies, I was the first woman to have a PhD in economics from a foreign university, and I didn’t have a cohort or alumni. And so I was a bit of a novelty. It was actually very lonely, and I felt like I had a lot going against me, although I was qualified in many ways.
My answer to this was networking. I joined all the associations, like ISEI and so on, and it was a good way to become involved in activities, get to know people, and adjust to being an academic in my home country after being away for so long.
I was also the first Indonesian woman of Chinese descent to become a government minister. That felt like a big burden, frankly speaking. It’s not just that you want to be successful: you feel that you have to be successful; otherwise, it could make things more difficult for other people following in your footsteps.
“If you’re the first to do anything, the most important thing is actually to prove your capability.”
I believe merit does speak for itself, and in academia, this is much more objectively measurable. In politics, it’s harder because personal opinion comes into it, and some people will always want to pull you down. So you have to find a way to survive and to be smart about it. For me, it was spending a lot of time explaining the costs and benefits of trade agreements, for example, to show there was no bias on either side.
“I learned a lot from my experiences, and I think my path has helped break the mold.”
Now we have many, many women with PhDs in economics, for example, and I hope to see more Chinese Indonesians taking senior positions in government.
Have any mentors helped to guide and coach you throughout your career?
Yes, and at different times. When I returned to Indonesia, at first I wasn’t sure if I could adjust back to living there because I had become so westernized. Professor Mohammed Fadli helped me a lot. He told me, “Look, I know you’re smart. Everyone knows you’re smart. But to behave in the Indonesian way, you must be respectful when you ask a question, especially if the person is older than you.” And he was right. This way, you can get your point across without upsetting people.
My mentors in the academic world also pushed me. They gave me assignments and made me go to international conferences and write papers so that I would be challenged as an academic. And that helped me to grow in confidence as I established a position and track record in my field.
In government, I would say I had many advisors rather than mentors, but one who stands out is Aristides Katoppo. I was often criticized for being too intellectual and too academic when I entered parliament at first. I had no idea what it would be like or how you were meant to behave. And so I spoke the way I was used to. One of my fellow ministers basically said, “Don’t try to teach us like a lecturer.” And Aristides Katoppo told me that my language and body language would need to change if I was going to be accepted as a politician, both in parliament and by the people. Things like going to the market and really crouching down to talk to your constituents might sound simple but are very important, for example.
You also have to be prepared to ask when you don’t understand something and to take feedback.
“I have always tried to find whoever I think can help or give me advice in new situations—
and let me know when I am getting it wrong.”
Do you think your experience has helped to drive positive change?
Yes. When you are providing input to government policy for example, as I did when working at a think tank, it is important to frame this in the proper way. Yes, you can be vocal; yes, you can be critical; but it has to be in a way that is advocating for good policy. It also has to be backed up by tangible research, facts, and figures. Then you are in a stronger position.
I also wrote a few articles that I’m proud of that recommend improvements to the government policy at the time, and they were written in a way that was productive and constructive.
When you have a successful career and a family, it can be a challenge. How do you manage the balance?
In my view, you can have a career and be successful and have a happy marriage and a family, but it’s not without its challenges, obviously.
I always wanted to be a university lecturer, and I did well in school, but when I wanted to do my PhD, my mother was against it because she thought nobody would want to marry a “clever girl.” Fortunately for me again, my father was very encouraging. He said, “No, no, you have to let her do what she wants.” So I got to do my PhD, and I did get married and have two sons, much to my mother’s relief.
“There are always sacrifices and trade-offs, especially when you are trying to balance two careers and a family.”
When I was in the academic world, it was much easier to manage, but even then, I was very busy, and my husband worked for a multinational company, which means moving abroad if you want to be promoted. My job was in Indonesia, so we basically agreed that we would take turns of living where the other person’s job was based. So we have also spent time in America and China as a family.
When I was called back to Indonesia to become a government minister, we had to take some tough decisions. It ultimately meant we were apart for about five years so my husband could continue his career.
It was a sacrifice that we had to make, but it meant the children had two very busy parents and an unusual family life for a while. Technology helps, like having a special ringtone only for your husband and kids so they know they can reach you in an emergency. I know I am very lucky to have a husband who is so supportive. Having a strong network and family support has also been invaluable.
What advice would you give to young women today?
The hardest thing for me was not being a woman but being young. Learning to find my voice and take my place among older colleagues.
“Firstly, I would say always be open to learning and don’t be afraid to say you don’t know something or to ask questions.”
I find that even if I know the answer, I will still ask the question because it helps you understand different perspectives. People also tend to appreciate being asked to share their wisdom.
It’s easy to say, “Have the confidence to speak out.” But actually, that is an issue for some women. Asian women, for example, tend to be less extroverted, more quiet and humble, less likely to question their boss in front of everybody.
“To assert yourself and speak out comes back to confidence.”
One way of building this is being well-prepared for any discussion or meeting. That way, when you do speak up, you can substantiate and justify your points very clearly and respectfully without coming across as aggressive or a know-it-all.
I am also a great believer in mentoring and networking when it comes to building confidence in yourself. A good mentor will help find the opportunities to help you flourish and will tell you the truth, so you need to be able to take feedback—even if you don’t like what you are hearing.
Obviously, professional networks are great for meeting people and developing in your field, but in my experience, good support from family and friends is priceless when you are trying to manage the balance between your professional and personal life. For example, the parents of your children’s friends are likely to know—and will tell you—what’s really going on with them. I made many dear friendships during my sons’ schooldays that remain to this day.
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